Derrick Reimer from SavvyCal - Can You Regain Your Confidence After Failing?

How do you regain your confidence after launching a failed product? How can you transition from wearing all the hats in a business to delegating tasks? Why is it so important to save your most productive time for your most valuable work?

[00:00:00] Heeeeeeey folks! Today, I'm speaking with Derrick Reimer. Derrick is the founder of SavvyCal, a tool for scheduling meetings that both you and the people who are scheduling with will love. He's also the co-founder of Drip, a marketing automation tool, and he is the host of the Art of Product podcast.

[00:00:42] I have long enjoyed using an app to schedule my meetings. For example, I scheduled meetings with my coaching clients. Rather than going back and forth with endless emails, trying to find a mutually convenient time. I just send people a link so they can book a slot on my calendar. I had been using a different tool, but recently I discovered SavvyCal and it's so much more enjoyable to use. So I looked into who created it and I ended up on Derrick's Twitter account. I learned that Derrick had co-founded Drip, which was one of the first apps I used years ago when I was first building my online business. And I have very fond memories of Drip, even though I no longer use it because Drip went into a different direction.

[00:01:20] But I was interested to hear Derrick’s story. It turns out there were quite a few ups and downs. Derrick and I discuss regaining your confidence after launching a failed product, transitioning from wearing all the hats in a business to delegating certain tasks, saving your most productive time for your most valuable work, and much more. Enjoy the show!

[00:01:42] Peter Akkies: Hey, Derrick, welcome to the show.

[00:01:44] Derrick Reimer: Hey, Peter. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:46] Peter Akkies: So let's start with a very deep question right away, Derrick. You have founded a bunch of businesses at this point. Some more successful than others. One of the companies you founded, or I guess co-founded, is that right? It was Drip. Um, And so obviously it has gotten quite big now , but I was sort of doing some background research on you. And I saw that you also launched a company that was kind of like a Slack competitor called Level and it didn't do so well. So I was kind of wanting to hear, how does it feel to launch, something that doesn't work well?

[00:02:16] Derrick Reimer: Not great. Uh, uh, Yeah.

[00:02:21] no. So a little bit of context there. Yeah.

[00:02:23] I, I co founded Drip alongside my co-founder Rob Walling back in 2012, and then we sold to LeadPages in 2016. And I basically spent a little more time there to help transition and moved on about, closer two years afterward and coming out of coming out of that, you know, that felt like a, kind of a successful journey.

[00:02:42] Like it did, you know, we, we hit all the notes. We started really small, we grew a small team and then we were strategically acquired like, so sort of riding on a high off of that experience of like, okay, I feel like I'm catching, learning how to do this whole SaaS thing well, and like, I can come out with some kind of ambitious idea for the next, the next thing.

[00:03:02] And through that process, like learned just how troublesome, like Slack can be at scale in large organizations, especially where it's like super noisy and, and hard to keep, keep tabs on various threads. And like, it's just, I, as a maker, as someone who was like writing a lot of code and doing kind of deep work stuff, like I just became increasingly annoyed by Slack.

[00:03:25] And I couldn't couldn't ignore that that tug to like go and try to, try to make progress on that front. But, you know, I, it was a very tough learning experience. I probably over engineered my first version. So I spent longer than I should have, like we're building product and I you know, succumbed to a lot of false signals as it turns out when I thought I was thought I was doing like good validation for the idea. But in, in reality made a bunch of mistakes there.

[00:03:54] Peter Akkies: All right. I want to unpack that a little bit, because that sounds very interesting. Right. So let's start by the high from Drip. Right. So first of all, how long did you work at Drip after it got acquired? Like how, how much, how for how long were you involved and to what degree.

[00:04:06] Derrick Reimer: Post acquisition. It was, I think. Probably about 20 months or so. And of course there's, you know, there was kind of a contractual amount of time that I needed to be there and I stayed, stayed past that, but it kind of felt like the right time, like the business was, was kind of starting to take on its next evolution.

[00:04:27] Like we started out very simple as like a, an email capture widget and gradually grew into marketing automation, which is a much, much larger scale type of product, not something we initially set out to build. And then, you know, when we were acquired by a company that was essentially a venture backed, I mean, LeadPages had raised some close to $40 million in venture capital.

[00:04:48] And so they kind of were looking for, what's the, what's the next big market to, to get into and to really expand. And um, leadership teams sort of identified e-commerce as, as a really good fit with you know, strategically for based on like talent that was in-house in the senior leadership team. And, you know, w just areas where they thought they could make strides.

[00:05:10] And that was an area, a realm that I was not particularly familiar with. Like, we definitely served some e-commerce companies, but it wasn't something that I felt was in, in my DNA as a founder. And I, I felt like, you know, this is probably the right time to let, you know, and, and around that time we had also basically fully transitioned all of my responsibilities. Like we had our whole engineering team that was up to speed on how everything worked. So it, it just felt like a natural, natural time to, to move on.

[00:05:36] Peter Akkies: Yeah, it's funny that you mentioned Drip's transition to e-commerce. So for people who are not familiar with Drip, I guess, but I encountered it, it was probably like 2016. Um, I encountered it for email marketing. So I was just starting to do the whole online business thing. I was learning about that a lot.

[00:05:51] And I was like, oh, there's like several apps out there that will let me, you know, capture people's emails and give them something in return as a lead magnet and like building an email list and sort of grow my business on that. And I was like, that's cool. And I used it for a while. And at some point there was this big announcement that was like, Hey, we are going to be focusing on e-commerce now.

[00:06:08] And I was like, Great. Bye. That's not me.

[00:06:11] Derrick Reimer: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:13] Peter Akkies: So, so, so that happened. But what I was thinking was like, from a business perspective, if you could probably make a lot more money serving sort of, you know, larger clients, more revenue in whatever. Whereas for me, I'm just, you know, one dude, you know, making some videos and having like a couple thousand people on my email list. But it's funny that you mentioned that.

[00:06:29] So, you got out of that company and you had the idea you know, Hey, I've been using Slack for a while. There's some pain points with Slack. Let me build something that is better. How did you start working on that?

[00:06:42] Derrick Reimer: Yeah. So, I mean, I, I started kind of talking to people in my, my inner circle about the idea and, you know, there was definitely a lot of people who were intrigued. There were, there was a lot of. Sense of like people were calling this at the time, like Slack lash, like backlash, but for Slack, like people that were, you know, this was sort of a tool that so many of us latched onto early on and it like seemed, seemed like a really great thing.

[00:07:08] And then kind of. It seems like it also you know, was, became so embraced because it gave people a level of access to their coworkers that they maybe previously didn't have, like, instead of waiting for someone to reply to an email, now I could just like post a Slack message and it would be. Send a push notification right.

[00:07:29] To the person. And like they would implicitly reply faster. And so like felt good to get more instantaneous kind of communication going. But of course, if you don't keep that in check. Yeah,

[00:07:41] Peter Akkies: I was thinking the same thing.

[00:07:42] Derrick Reimer: Yeah. Yeah,

[00:07:43] And so it kind of, I think a lot of people resonated with that pain point that I identified. And there was a lot of excitement.

[00:07:51] I like published a, wrote a little manifesto about kind of just speaking directly to, to this pain point and threw it up on a landing page. And that got a ton of a ton of lift ton of interest. I

[00:08:02] Peter Akkies: Yeah,

[00:08:03] Derrick Reimer: In the, over the course of, kind of my build out, I gathered close to 6,000 email addresses. I think of people who were like seemingly very interested in an alternative.

[00:08:14] And so I did, I did definitely do some calls, trying to get a sense for what actual problems were people having. I was trying to do my best at like doing rigorous customer validation. In, in hindsight, I think I ignored, kind of th there was a couple things going on. There was people were just wanting to be supportive. They were, they were kind of cheerleading. So there's there's, there were the cheerleaders who were just like, Yeah, this sounds amazing, yeah, Slack sucks. Yeah,

[00:08:41] You know, but they weren't actually like what I failed to do is identify whether they were actually in a position to make a buying decision about this in their organization. Were they the only one that felt that way inside of their company or did, was this like a sentiment that was shared among all the decision-makers? How much of their business was our, it was like running on Slack. Like I kind of underestimated how many tentacles Slack has in so many companies. Like, you know, you just have various like web hooks set up or just business process things where like, you know, anytime a lead comes in at pings in this channel and the sales team picks it up.

[00:09:14] So like there's workflow automation happening at a really deep level. And the more complex. The, or the more, the larger the company is generally the more complex their setup is, and also like the stickier. So therefore the stickier Slack is in the company. So it's like the ones that actually felt the pain the most in, you know, relatively larger teams.

[00:09:35] Where things were really, really chaotic. Those were the ones that were going to be hardest to sell to, and, and really like the people who felt the pain the most were the makers in the organization, but the management layer, for them, it was great. Like their job is to be interrupted all day long. Basically

[00:09:50] Peter Akkies: That's a great, that's a great insight. We—we should just let that sink in for the listeners a little bit.

[00:09:55] Derrick Reimer: Yeah. Yeah. That's one way to like, to characterize it. It's like, there's the people whose job is to interrupt as little as possible and then the opposite. Right. So I think, you know, it was hard. It would have, it would probably would have been possible to, to get to the bottom of that. If I had probably had more of a posture towards like validation is a phase where you actually try to, um, You try to invalidate your hypothesis. So like, I should've, I should've probably taken the approach of, of going out there and saying like, all right, I think this is an interesting idea. Now let me try to prove myself wrong. And if I'm unable to sufficiently disprove my hypothesis, then, then I can move to the next step.

[00:10:37] But instead I think I was seeking a lot of confirmation and I got a ton of that. I collected several thousand dollars in pre-orders. All those email addresses. All the hype. And in reality, so, so then I spent about a year working on the first version of the product. I was sharing updates, people were excited.

[00:10:55] And then when it came time to start inviting the very first people who had prepaid it was sort of crickets. Like people weren't really like, they were like, Some people took me up on like getting in the product, looking at it. They kind of logged in a couple of times, poked around and then that was it.

[00:11:12] Other people just ignored the emails, honestly. So it was, it was confusing. It was like, wait, what, what is happening here? This is very different than, than what I was expecting. And so I ultimately got like a couple of teams on board using it and there were people on those teams who were actually angry that they were switching off of Slack, like P I didn't realize how married to it.

[00:11:40] A lot of people were so like, even the ones where, you know, it was a founder who I knew, and he was like, Nope, I'm kind of the sole decision maker on this thing. And I'm deciding we're going to try your tool. Like I'm willing to, I'm willing to do that. And he got so much backlash from his team. And was like, Oh,

[00:11:56] boy, this is going to be, this is a much stickier product than I thought.

[00:11:59] And it just does not boating well, that, that I'm not able to convince even some of my, some of my friends, honestly, who have companies and teams to switch over was, you know, started to become a major red flag at that point.

[00:12:12] Peter Akkies: Yeah. And so at the point where you were still building this right before your sort of publicly launched Level, I guess, or I don't know if you did a beta launch or whatever the F before the point where you start getting users on it and you were doing the validation, you said, perhaps you should've done a little bit more aggressive validation or trying to disprove your own hypothesis, that this was something people wanted.

[00:12:31] Do you think perhaps you were a little overconfident from having done so well with Drip?

[00:12:35] Derrick Reimer: definitely. Yeah, I think that's, that's one of the hazards that comes, I think when you feel like, and I see other founders going through the same cycle where you just. You think you have some things figured out and then, but in reality, like most, most learnings and advice don't necessarily generalize, like the higher level concepts do. You know, learning how to problem solve, for example, is like something you can hone over time.

[00:12:59] But the specific tactics that happen to work, like whether it's growth, channels, marketing, things, even development things. Even though it worked for this very specific application at this very specific point in time, that's no guarantee. That, you know, that guarantee success or that it applies to the next to the next phase. And I think that is, that is a pretty big hazard. When you, when you come off of something that you feel like was a, was a big success to just assume that that you know how to know how to tackle the next phase. And, and so, Yeah, I definitely fell victim to that.

[00:13:32] And also like, you know, it's sort of been deliberate over the past number of years in kind of growing a bit of a personal audience. You know, I've been podcasting weekly, active on Twitter communities. And just like trying to, trying to build up that asset of like people who are following along with what I'm doing. And that can also be a really dangerous thing

[00:13:54] Peter Akkies: Yeah.

[00:13:54] Derrick Reimer: what you end up with is a lot of people who are invested in basically your wellbeing

[00:14:00] Peter Akkies: Yeah, they like you.

[00:14:01] Derrick Reimer: yeah. Yeah. And so they want to be encouraging and that's actually. That's actually can, can be a really really tricky thing to root out. So I discovered during this time, the book called the mom test by Rob Fitzpatrick. Highly recommend it, and it should be on the bookshelf of every founder, I think because it's short, it's actionable and it basically gives you kind of a framework for talking to customers or potential customers.

[00:14:23] And without succumbing to some of those biases, like people always want to say nice things and help you out, but really like, you need to ask questions in a certain way where it's impossible for them to lie to you. Cause you're just information gathering. And uh, so that was, that was pretty eyeopening.

[00:14:38] When I read that book, someone gave it to me during the kind of tail end of the Level time. That was What really solidified in my mind like, oh yeah. I've kind of gotten off the track here because gotten a lot of, a lot of biased information creeping in

[00:14:54] Peter Akkies: Yeah. What is the, is the gist of this book, Hey, you know, don't have people be like your mom always supportive of you. Is that kind of the idea?

[00:15:00] Derrick Reimer: Yeah. Th the idea, I think he named it that way, because he says like, you can use this, this framework to validate a product idea even with, with your own mom. So

[00:15:10] Peter Akkies: Oh, wow.

[00:15:10] Derrick Reimer: an example of like you know, like he say, he was building a theoretical app for like managing recipes. Right. And you know, if his mom's a cook, so he goes out, Hey mom, what do you think about an iPad app where you can see all your recipes and she'd be like, oh, that sounds great, honey.

[00:15:25] And dah, dah, dah. And so. Then he, like, he uses that as like an example, one of the many examples in there where he's like, but if I had asked questions in these specific, in this specific way, like, mom, what have you done to like, do you have trouble with storing recipes? Well, what have you done to try to solve that problem so far?

[00:15:42] The answer would have been like, oh, nothing. I just keep them in my same old recipe book that I've had for the last 40

[00:15:46] Peter Akkies: it's fine.

[00:15:47] Derrick Reimer: That's fine. So yeah, like never ask, obviously, never asking the question that, like, what do you think about this idea I want to work on? Does this sound like a good idea? Like, that's a terrible question.

[00:15:57] Peter Akkies: It is a terrible question. And so, and so I'm curious to hear how. You avoided this mistake in SavvyCal. But first I just want to reflect a little bit on that moment when you realized like, this thing with Level is not working out, because I'm curious how you pulled the plug and what happened after you pulled the plug, how you felt and whether you took any time off, maybe before starting your next product or that you would just like, okay, this didn't work. I got to start something else right away.

[00:16:25] Derrick Reimer: Yeah. I um, probably there's probably like a four to six week period where I think I knew deep down, like this is not going to be, I don't think this is going to be viable, but I kind of dragged my feet a little bit on making the official call, you know? And I, and I had a couple of teams using the product.

[00:16:44] And so it was like, there were some, some logistics there of like, all right, I'm gonna have to break the news to them. And off-board them off the product. That's not going to be fun. So some of those things made me procrastinate a little bit. I think. I, you know, just finally um, after conversations with friends, mentors, my wife, like finally just, you know, came, became at peace with it.

[00:17:09] And I actually decided to go out of town for like a long weekend trip, up to a cabin in Northern Minnesota to reflect and make sure that this was like, okay. this is the. Move to make I up there, I wrote the retrospective, like the blog posts. It's like the most popular piece of content I've ever written. That's gotten shared on a bunch on the internet. Yeah.

[00:17:35] It really resonated with people, which honestly, that, that was one of the, the it was a bittersweet thing, shutting it down. That was one of the sweet parts was like that I could, you know, reflect on this, summarize it and then share it with the world. And hopefully. Some other founders avoid those same mistakes. You know, that, that brings me joy to see that happen.

[00:17:54] But I really kind of, it was a good reset to go up there and, and do that. And I sort of came to terms with it. Like there was probably a brief kind of mourning period of like, Okay. I'm going to this, thing's dead and I'm need to move on to the next thing.

[00:18:06] But then the months that followed were, I was pretty stressed out because I was sort of faced with this decision. I'm like, all right, I've, I've burned a lot of runway. The, in this last year I had enough personal runway to take another swing, but you know, it really hits your confidence when you go through an experience like that.

[00:18:25] So I was like, do I really want to do that? Should I just go get a job for a while and just like draw a paycheck and just, just like, kind of really reset and look for, look for the next thing during That time, or I don't know. I was sort of in a place of like, I don't really know what to do. But I kind of became convinced like, this doesn't feel like the right time yet for me to like put the brakes on entrepreneurship and just go get a job.

[00:18:51] Like I knew I wanted to do something, but it was pretty agonizing. I spent a couple of months, really not, you know, not diving into any particular project and just spending a lot of time in my hammock, in the backyard and like you know, just kind of, kind of chilling that summer and, and doing a lot of like, Thinking and scribbling in the notebook, trying to come up with ideas.

[00:19:12] And so, yeah, there was a, there was a period of a few months, and then I actually had a, a product in between Level and SavvyCal that was sort of a bridge product that I worked on for a bit. And didn't really gain traction with it, but I. Wasn't expecting it to be a big success necessarily. I was sort of sort of like interested.

[00:19:36] It was basically in the, in the developer tooling space for static site generators. And I just wanted to really, I wanted to play with the technology, explore the space a bit and. Kind of wait to get some degree of confidence that I knew what I was going to, what I was really going to sink my teeth into.

[00:19:53] And I think that's important to do like, like just sitting idly, staring at a metaphorical blank page, thinking like what's my next business going to be is a really hard thing to do

[00:20:03] Peter Akkies: That never works.

[00:20:04] Derrick Reimer: No, no.

[00:20:05] Peter Akkies: That doesn't work for anything. That doesn't work if you're writing a blog post or making a video, a podcast, it never works, business. So how did you decide not to take a job just to have some money coming in. How did you decide, you know what, like I'm going to take at least one more swing and I guess two, in the end, at building a new business

[00:20:23] Derrick Reimer: yeah, I think, I think talking to friends and mentors was a big. It was a big help. Like if I just had to decide on my own, then I probably would have wouldn't have had enough. Wouldn't have been able to muster enough self confidence to, to go and do it. But I think um, you know, I have some friends that are very like, Rob, my, my co-founder with Drip is also a really good friend of mine and we had a bunch of conversations and it's like, well, realistically, like what can you, what can you afford? Like, can you afford to do, could you do another year of trying something?

[00:21:00] And, and now you have lessons that you can take from previous experience, and I know you can do something like, I know you can, you're capable of doing this and just hearing like someone that I respect to say, like, no you're capable of doing this was really what I needed to hear. And so. I I'm actually decently, like, reflecting on my own personality. I'm decently risk averse for, for being an entrepreneur. Like I, if I'm looking at, you know, three years of runway, personal runway in the bank, I'm like feeling like, I don't know, I'm pretty close to the end of my runway.

[00:21:30] Peter Akkies: Oh, really?

[00:21:31] Derrick Reimer: yes, like I'm

[00:21:32] Peter Akkies: for many people that would be the dream.

[00:21:34] Derrick Reimer: right, right.

[00:21:35] And I've known many people who have taken a leap on, you know, four months of savings or three months of savings or something. And so part of that is just, I, I have to be reminded by other people. Look, you have plenty of runway. You can do this. Like you can, you can be a little riskier. And even my wife is one of those people who says that, which helps.

[00:21:53] Like, she's like, I don't care. Yeah.

[00:21:55] go do it. Go risk, you know, like take a risk. And so it's helpful to have people to be served as those voices. I think I think it's really important.

[00:22:05] Peter Akkies: And so then at what point did you decide to work on what is now your main, you know, business? Or maybe the only one, SavvyCal. When did you have the idea for that? And when did you say, okay, you know what, this is what I'm going to sink my teeth into.

[00:22:18] Derrick Reimer: Yeah.

[00:22:19] So I was kind of, yeah, I worked on the, the static site tools app for a while. And it was, it was going to be a hard road to like grow that into a full business. So I was kind of, I'm still working through ideation and the, one of the favorite exercises I like to do is to periodically reflect on tools that I've used as part of my regular tool chain. And just think about like, what, what about these tools is sub-optimal?

[00:22:47] I think, you know, scratching your own itch, as they say is, it's not a silver bullet. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to hit on something good if you're like identify some problem you have is something. Like you might be the only person that really cares about that problem, where maybe you've like deluded yourself into thinking that it's a bigger problem than it really is.

[00:23:05] Like, we tend to. We have a tendency to do that sometimes when we're analyzing a problem and we start to like, think about like, yeah, I think I could do that better. And then suddenly you inflate the problem in your head bigger than it actually is in, you know, in the market. So it can be a risky thing, but still, I feel like it's it's, it can be a really good starting point because if you know the problem intimately well, then you have a much better shot at, at just having better hunches, better intuition about things um, to at least use as a starting point.

[00:23:34] And so I'd used scheduling tools a bunch. We had integrated with Calendly early on, like when Calendly was only a few a year or two old, I think. And it's really early days we integrated Drip into it. And so I was. Very familiar with this type of tool. It was pretty interesting to me from a bunch of different angles. One being that it's kind of, it's very opposite from Level in that an individual person can just use it, you

[00:23:59] know,

[00:24:00] Peter Akkies: It's very different, right? Yeah. It's not like a business thing.

[00:24:03] Derrick Reimer: Right. And like teams can use it and, and do, you know, use scheduling tools, but it doesn't have to start that way. You can just start with one, one busy person who needs to schedule meetings and wants to use a scheduling link. So it kind of has a natural path from like single player to multiplayer. That's very smooth.

[00:24:20] It's pretty easy to switch. The switching costs are not very high. Most people switch within a matter of a couple of minutes from a different tool. It naturally spreads itself. So like every time you share a scheduling link, it has a SavvyCal branding on it. So it's being exposed to it, to new people.

[00:24:35] It's I determined it was going to be pretty quick to build like a first version of it compared to Level. Level was like a nine month ish initial build out before I started inviting people in. And this, this is just much lower. Like I didn't didn't have as many minimum things that needed to be in the product to be useful to people.

[00:24:54] So. Like all these things seem super attractive. I kind of did a lot of like analysis of this kind in my notebook and this idea kind of stuck out. And then I started reflecting on, you know, what's my experience using scheduling tools. And one of the things I've observed is like many times people don't actually use scheduling link and they fall back to the less optimal route because they're afraid of offending the other person.

[00:25:17] This was a very curious behavior pattern that I noticed, like, why are people intentionally. Choosing to waste time. And I understand it's part etiquette. Like part of it is just like, you know, communicating well. But the other part, I think like, I think the product can help with, like, I think it's a combination of etiquette and, and the way the product works.

[00:25:41] And so I started to think of like, well, how could I make a scheduling tool that feels more collaborative? That feels just as convenient for the other party and maybe encourage people to use it a little bit more than they already are right now and not have that friction. I also always had a lot of anxiety around sending a scheduling link and not being sure. If, if that's going to completely wreck my calendar, like, so I would always like before I would send one out, I always go check and look at the, okay, what are the slots it's showing? Then I click over to my calendar and I look at what's coming up with my schedule and maybe I'd go like do some manual blockouts and it was this whole.

[00:26:19] Kind of laborious process. And so that was another big piece that I was starting to like envision was like, what if you just log in to the tool and you see your calendar, you see the availability they're going to see, and you can quickly make modifications on the fly. And so there was a couple of pieces like that that were just fundamentally different.

[00:26:37] And what I felt was like leveling up the status quo. And that's how I formed kind of my initial hypothesis around, around a new new product here.

[00:26:45] Peter Akkies: Yeah, I love what you said about starting the business to scratch your own itch. Because actually my previous podcast guest, she started a business that started out with like scented candles. And it, it grew quite rapidly and she found it was very hard to track her inventory. And so she and her boyfriend built an app to like track the inventory for people who are like, you know, Selling handcrafted things like Etsy shops and whatever.

[00:27:08] And now that business, which is also a SaaS product it's actually much bigger than the scented candle business. I do think that can work. Um, But you said earlier that, you know, when you were building Level, you kind of fell into some traps, right? You assume that people, you know, were more likely to switch, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:27:29] And you mentioned some of those things with SavvyCal-wise, it's easy for people to switch, you know, from Calendly to SavvyCal a while ago. And it was like, it was very easy. Like you're saying, it looked me like 15 minutes to like, learn how to set it up. And it's much easier. I love the calendar overlay feature. And for people, by the way, who were like, what is this? You know, w why don't you give a really short pitch actually, like who needs a scheduling app?

[00:27:49] Derrick Reimer: Sure. Yeah, Yeah. So the, I mean the basic premise is, you know, if you, if you need to ever find times to like schedule a Zoom call or a podcast recording or. Uh, Meeting with generally like someone external to your, to your internal team, you know, an external colleague or something. And so you basically want to be able to share your availability, um, When you don't have something already on your calendar and set some parameters like automatically attach a Zoom meeting or set a duration like this will be a 30 minute meeting or a 60 minute. That's what SavvyCal allows you to do.

[00:28:20] You can generate a link and you can, you can personalize it. You can pre-fill the recipient's information on it. And they will receive a link that takes them to a page where they can see a calendar view. Your anonymized availability. They're not going to see your calendar events are going to see when you're blocked out, when you're free, and then they can click a button and authorize their calendar to see their events, right on top of your availability, if they want to, they don't have to do that.

[00:28:44] Peter Akkies: Yeah, I love that part. That bites that's so nice.

[00:28:47] Derrick Reimer: Yep. Yep. It's it's, I'm delighted. Every time someone sends me a SavvyCal link, which happens, it happened for this podcast episode. Um, And when I receive it and I'm of course logged in SavvyCal. So as soon as I open your link, it's like right away, I can see times that worked for me because it's just, it's just right there.

[00:29:04] So Yeah.

[00:29:06] Peter Akkies: It's just the, not have to send a bunch of back and forth emails. Hey, can you do this or this or this time? And then someone replies three days later. Oh yes. I could do that time. But nooo that time has already been booked now. It's a massive pain point. So I like it now because I do some coaching for people and, you know, I record podcast episodes and all that stuff.

[00:29:23] So it's much easier just to send the link and be like, this is my availability pick a time. Um, Okay. So, so you had this itch and you were. I use scheduling tools. I feel like they can be better. I can build a better one, but how did you avoid falling into this same trap of, Hey, you know I don't, I don't like everything about Slack and, and, you know, people are excited, but it turns out they're mostly supportive of you and they don't necessarily have that pain point. How did you just distinguish between, you know, those two situations? How did you know that people really wanted this and we're going to use it if you built it?

[00:29:57] Derrick Reimer: Yeah. It's like, I, I think I employed all of the, the, the mom test practices in my conversations. And so I think that was helpful, but honestly, it's like, I didn't know for sure. And that is the, that's the thing that, that entrepreneurs have to be willing to accept, like, Some of this is, is like some of this is discernible.

[00:30:20] Some of it is just simply not until you have an actual product you can put in people's hands. So I had some conversations, I would say some of them were people who were skeptical, not convinced. They were like, I dunno, Calendly is pretty nice. Like, why would I want anything different? And I was trying not to just pitch them on my concept, you know?

[00:30:37] So I was really trying to. Avoid doing that. Cause that, that sets you up for bias. Right. So I was trying to get at like, well, okay. So have you, have you explored other tools have you experienced, you know, friction sending, like, do you, are there times where you don't send your link? And what I did find was like, there were a lot of people who said, like, who just told me that. Yeah.

[00:30:58] there are a lot of times where I don't send a link. And so part of this was me. on myself that like I could actually build a compelling solution that would, that would be, make a meaningful difference on people's behavior on that front. Because I think people express wanting to be able to, they were not happy about the fact that they had to go the inefficient route, but they just felt stuck.

[00:31:20] And so sometimes you have to, you have to rely on those signals, which are not entirely clear that they'll switch tools, but I was also kind of relying on the fact that like, even. You know, even if I make this marginally better for them, I think a lot of these people seem open to exploring another tool because it's not the same as ripping out your entire team communication platform and replacing it.

[00:31:42] This is just like, well, I could, Yeah.

[00:31:44] I mean, I could try out your tool and if I like it, then maybe I'll switch over. And I knew that like, if someone said that to me, I could probably deliver on keeping the switching costs low. And so to me it was worth bedding. I got enough validation, I will say from that and not enough, like refuting evidence to say like, okay, I'll put three months into building an MVP and we'll see what happens next.

[00:32:07] And so I just took it as like a learning step, you know,

[00:32:11] Peter Akkies: Right. And so now you SavvyCal is moderately successful or successful with, to some degree. Right. You know people like it, I enjoy using it and it seems like you enjoy working on it. So, but you know, you have some big competitors, like Calendly is a much bigger organization. I don't know exactly how many people they have, but much bigger.

[00:32:30] So. You know, when you're talking to people, how do you say you should use my product that I make? And I think you have two other employees, right? So like the three of us are making as opposed to this other company that been around longer has much more brand recognition and, you know, a larger team, lots of support folks. How do you pitch people on that?

[00:32:49] Derrick Reimer: Yeah. I think. You know, part of it is this, this, the tool spreads itself naturally. So people are, people are seeing it and constantly talking about it. Who are, who have broken outside of my kind of sphere of influence. I would say, like I kind of the first and second ring, you know, on, on Twitter and my newsletter and podcast audience, like I see people who are. In those spheres coming in contact with the tool regularly. And I think so a big part of this has been delivering on the promise of like a better user experience.

[00:33:20] So when people, people see it and experience it, it catches their attention. So that's been big. I think another piece that we tried to We tried to zero in on like, okay. So our positioning, we did a bunch of work on and a lot of the tools in the space are positioned with a headline. Like I think Kelly's headline is like easy scheduling ahead. So they're just, they're just saying like, it's a very literal headline speaking to what, what the tool does and the, the opportunity that we could explore it here was the fact that tools like Calendly have paved the way.

[00:33:53] For people understanding what this type of tool does. So we don't have to do that kind of education. Instead. We can say we can be much more direct speaking to the pain point in our headlines. So like our headline we had for a long time was sending your scheduling link. Shouldn’t feel weird. And if you don't know what a scheduling link is, this would, you'd be like, What do you, what the hell are you talking about. Like, what is

[00:34:16] Peter Akkies: about. Yeah.

[00:34:16] Derrick Reimer: So we're like, we're, we we're positioning directly to people who already understood the space. Well, and when they read that line, that'd be like, oh Yeah, it does feel weird. Like that would strike a chord with them. And you can't do that. If you're one of the first tools, if you're an innovator, who's like needs to educate the market.

[00:34:35] A new class Of tool, then you can't, you can't come out saying like, we're going to make it feel less weird. You have to just tell people like, this is what it does. You don't have to do back and forth over email anymore, but it, it waters down your, your pitch. So like the, I think it, that served us well to really speak to a key differentiator.

[00:34:54] Assuming that we're going to be getting this marketing site, primarily in front of people who are already familiar with these types of tools. And you know, one of the first pages we built was a comparison page with Calendly. And because that's the natural first question is like, how are you different?

[00:35:10] And I understand like people. I would be curious too, if I encountered a new tool, like, well, but how is it? How is it any different? So I think, you know, like product-wise, I definitely prioritized you know, building the differentiating pieces first. So like the, the visual calendar booking interface is something that I don't believe any other tool on the market has.

[00:35:32] And so I invested most of my time into building that experience. So then I could point to, no we're different in this fundamental way. And here's how we put the product right on the homepage. So like right there below the headline is an actual working demo of a scheduling link. So people can immediately play with it. So we're just trying to like reduce the amount of time it takes for someone to grasp that it really is different.

[00:35:57] Peter Akkies: Yeah. That's your unique selling point, right? It's like I can, if you send me a SavvyCal link, I can not just see your calendar, like see my own calendar and it's, it's, it's amazing. I really hope some people listening, go check this out because it's, I encountered not nearly often enough when I try to schedule things with people, like just using any scheduling tools. So,

[00:36:16] Derrick Reimer: and that's, and it's a huge market. So like, here are the point of like, how am I competing? You know? Entering large markets can be daunting. It can be scary, but it's also presents a lot of opportunity because there are just, I mean, there are literally millions of people on this planet who could potentially use a scheduling tool. Many of them already are, but many of them, a majority of them probably aren't yet. And so that's another thing. Like if you're tackling something as general as like helping people more efficiently manage their time and you're taking a particular angle, there's just so many. Opportunities compared to something that's like extremely niche.

[00:36:52] I mean, that's another, there's another strategy is just to go really, really niche and

[00:36:56] Peter Akkies: Right. Like for doctor's offices or

[00:36:58] Derrick Reimer: yeah. Yeah. And, and that's fine too, but it narrows, it narrows the scope of it. So it's just, that's what I that's kind of cuts both ways, but I like that aspect of large markets is that there's just so many people to potentially sell to.

[00:37:13] Peter Akkies: Yeah. And I think sort of a lot of people in the software engineering space, probably like 90% of them use a scheduling tool. But if you go to like lawyers you'll find that many of them don't. Whereas a lot of them probably could.

[00:37:22] Anyway, I want to talk a little bit about how you work. I'm curious about this and I think people will be too, so. Uh, Just to establish a baseline. So I think you currently have three people working on SavvyCal, but where are you working on alone up to a certain point?

[00:37:36] Derrick Reimer: Yeah. So I started I'm a solo founder, so I was just working on the product myself up until, um, let's see. We launched, we started working on it. It basically at the beginning of COVID I can spring of spring of 2020.

[00:37:52] Peter Akkies: It's a nice way to measure time. Right. Ever since COVID it was like, there's like, the start of COVID. This is such a great point.

[00:37:58] Derrick Reimer: Right. Yeah. So it was right around that time. And I basically built, did wore all the hats for the first, you know, nine months or so.

[00:38:08] Launched it you know, privately launched it then did a public launch and got to, about a thousand dollars in monthly recurring revenue by the end of November of 2020. And around that time, So I'd also during this process, like post-Drip had raised a little bit of funding from TinySeed, which is a kind of an Indy like funding for bootstrappers type of funding.

[00:38:36] So not, not traditional venture capital. And so that gave me some, some nice, like runway in the business to be able to hire a head of revenue growth a little bit. And. I recognize that, you know, I'm predominantly a product builder and someone needs to be focusing a majority of their energy on that. And so that's when I it worked out for me to contract with Corey, Corey Haines, who does kind of our he's like our part-time head of marketing and growth.

[00:39:03] And it's been really, really great having help on that front. So he helped coordinate our product hunt launch that was very, very successful. And then we've just experimented with a bunch of different channels over the last year. And, you know, he spearheaded most of those. So it allowed, freed me up to, to still continue aggressively building out product.

[00:39:22] And then I reached the point by like mid 2021, I was like, Ready to, I was feeling like a bit of distraction from support, even though the support volume wasn't super high, I would wake up in the morning and always check that inbox. And if there were a number of emails in there I would want to get right on them.

[00:39:43] And my most productive time is in the morning. So I found myself constantly using my most productive hours of the day, just answering support emails. And so I started a. Ended up hiring, going through a firm called xFusion. I really have enjoyed working with them and they, they do all the, like the sourcing and hiring of, of a dedicated support rep for you.

[00:40:05] And I just pay. A flat fee to them. And so, you know, got, got to start working with Reggie through that and he's been fantastic. So it's been nice to kind of have someone looking over the growth and marketing side of things and over the support side of things. And that really helps, you know, free up my mental headspace.

[00:40:23] Peter Akkies: Yeah, totally. And so, and so initially you wore all the hats yourself. I imagine you still wear several hats yourself. Cause there there's. Multiple things to do, but let's think especially about when you were doing everything by yourself, how did you sort of switch between those different hats? Did you, for example, say on Mondays, I'm going to do this I'm Tuesdays. I'm going to do that or was it very much like whatever feels urgent is what I'm going to work on right now.

[00:40:49] Derrick Reimer: Yeah. I think I, I've never I've experimented with trying to do like, all right. I'm only going to do this type of task on this day. Type of flow. I've never been able to consistently keep that rhythm up. I think. What I generally do is say like for a given week, my focus is going to be in a certain area.

[00:41:08] So like, if I know I want to make progress on particular feature or set of features, then you know, maybe I decide in, in a given week, like, all right, that's going to be my main focus, but then maybe the next week it's like, all right, we have a bunch of, you know, website updates to make, or just things on the marketing front that we want to focus energy on.

[00:41:26] So then I kind of mentally set that in my mind as like, that's the number one priority for this week and make sure that like on any given day I'm making forward progress on that goal for the week. I think, I think it's going to be interesting to see how this evolves for me because it's probably gonna make sense to start planning. Even a bit more in advance and saying like maybe the next month or even the next six weeks, this is what I want to try to get done. But I feel like in the early stage it's really served me well to stay a bit more nimble, like a bit more like planning kind of up to the next few days, as opposed to really far out has.

[00:42:03] Cause you have to be when you're, when it's really early and you're trying to figure out like, all right, I'm behind by a significant amount on like kind of the table stakes features that people expect from scheduling tools. Like, so the question is like, when's the right time to add customization on this specific thing. Like, I don't know when the right time is for that, but I'm going to be nimble enough listening to like customers coming in and like, okay, this is starting to become a really big problem for enough customers.

[00:42:30] Like I need to get on that now. Guest that like, it would have been hard to know without actual um, signal coming in from customers. So all that to say, like, I, I think, you know, in the, especially in the first year, year and a half, like I've tried to stay very, very um, nimble, like able to react quickly to, to stuff coming in. And yeah, like I think kind of keeping it to like a, a goal for the week has been most effective for.

[00:42:58] Peter Akkies: And then let's say there's a feature that you want to build out, would you then block off time on your calendar for that? And like, not look at support requests?

[00:43:07] Derrick Reimer: Yeah. I'm generally, so there's I see two schools of thought on this, on like allocating time. One is like the, the time blocker or the one who budgets all of their time. And then the other alternative is like, just trying to keep a lot of white space on the calendar and I am. I still prefer, I, this might evolve for me too over time, but like, I still prefer having a day where like, there's no calendar events on there.

[00:43:29] Like that's the best day for me. And I kind of know my natural rhythms. So like my, for me, it's pretty simple. Like beginning of the day I have the most energy. That's my, the time where I'm going to be most creative, most productive. And then it's basically all downhill from there. And I try to, like, I try to keep lifting it up periodically.

[00:43:45] Coffee, basically throughout the day. So, you know, mornings are like, when, if I'm going to work on something really high value. That's when I want to tackle it is when my first, you know, first bit of caffeine really hits. That's when it's, you know, it's time, it's go time and. And then I'll kind of mid morning, generally check, try to check in on email and, and support and see what's happening. And then kind of go another hour or two, eat lunch, check on email, do another, maybe a couple hours stint and then kind of wind down for the day.

[00:44:18] Peter Akkies: Yeah, no, it really resonates what you say with me, what you said about keeping your calendar empty on certain days. So I've really been. Trying to do that. And I need to put more effort into it because it's so easy to have even just like one meeting a day, maybe two meetings a day. And especially if you need to do any kind of work that requires focus.

[00:44:37] So for you, I guess, would be like building a new feature, whatever, you know, coding. For me I’m spending sort of this quarter, the final quarter of 2021 on really upping my YouTube game. And so that requires me to be quite in a creative mode where I spend hours at a time planning out a video, recording it, you know. That's just not something you can really do with like one hour at a time or even two. It really, you know, and, and knowing, oh, in an hour and a half, I have a podcast recording. It makes it very difficult to get in that creative headset and space. So I really, that really resonates with me.

[00:45:05] So when you. Decide. Okay. I'm going to work on this, this feature, you know, this week or something like that, right. Let's say it's a new feature for SavvyCal for the actual product. And then you have an idea for something that you could update on the website. Are you disciplined enough to then not work on the website? Do you sort of have a system where you put that off and you like see it next week or does it kind of slip in and you find yourself kind of later in the day, mucking around with the website anyway.

[00:45:34] Derrick Reimer: I do often let those little things slip in. I generally try not to interrupt an existing task. Like I, a big goal of mine is to not have a bunch of like feature branches going at once and, and try to, I try to relentlessly break things down into smaller chunks as possible, so that like, if I'm working on kind of a big initiative, maybe I've sliced off a small piece, but I can work on, get done in the span of a day and deploy that piece into production and feel good about like checking off that slice of it. And then, you know, once I kind of feel like I've gotten that to a, to a good place, then I can. If it's a small, small change I want to make to a website or something like that, I can slip that kind of task in.

[00:46:15] If alternatively, I was doing like a big, I had a big, long running branch where I was like deep in the middle of this project and it was going to take multiple days or even weeks to get through. Then I might still work on some of those little things, but I would have, I would feel much more anxiety around that.

[00:46:31] And so I think a big thing that I've tried to do Yeah.

[00:46:33] Is kind of break things up into small chunks. So. Slip in other small things.

[00:46:39] Peter Akkies: Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things that I keep trying to tell people also in, you know, when I coach people or, you know, when I, in my courses, when I make videos is. A lot of the times people are sort of thinking, oh, what should I work on today? And not sure should I work on a, or should I work on B today? And then I tell them, you kind of need to take a step back and like make higher level decisions.

[00:46:58] So that's why I really like what you're saying is like this week is going to be about topic X. I, I, you know, like doing this at a quarterly level, so I kind of like update my list of goals every quarter. And then I have action steps for every goal. And then I say, okay, Quarter, I'm really going to focus on this.

[00:47:12] For example, like for me, Q4 2021 is all about YouTube. I'm going to like you know, learn a bunch of things about editing. I enrolled in like a course, a live course that will help me with this. You know, I'm like upgrading my home studio may even move apartments to like get a better home studio and everything.

[00:47:26] And so, but it also means then that you're not focusing on the other stuff. So you mentioned it's easy to feel anxiety, but that's, I think what happens when you try to focus on two things, you're constantly thinking to yourself, should I be working on the other thing, but by having a periodic regular planning process Um, you can kind of get out of that.

[00:47:41] And so I'm curious about, do you do any planning on a timescale longer than a week? Both for SavvyCal, but also like for personal goals. For example could be like something like fitness or whatever. Um, Do you have any process that you go through periodically?

[00:47:54] Derrick Reimer: Yeah. I think I've been, I've been starting to do more of kind of the quarterly planning as well. So I haven't been super rigorous about it, but I think I have started to feel some of the effects of not having like a solid plan in my head. So I, and I've talked this throughout my podcast multiple times, too, where I'm

[00:48:11] like realizing I'm feeling a little bit like just a little bit unsure or like. I don't know, feeling like I've dropped in productivity or something. And it's like, well, what are you measuring? What are you making your evaluation of yourself against? Like, what are you? And that's the, that's the important thing I think is like, it's less about like, I don't need goals necessarily to keep myself motivated.

[00:48:35] Cause I'm an intrinsically pretty motivated person, but I think it's like the reverse can happen where. Yeah, if I don't have like something where I'm like, if you just get this done, then you can feel good about the progress you've made. Then I will kind of find myself in a state of. Of almost always feeling dissatisfied or like, like I'm not getting enough done or not getting enough done fast enough.

[00:48:58] Um, And so I think for me, a lot of that kind of thinking through um, so Yeah. like I still do kind of the what's the goal for the week, but I, but I measure that against kind of my goal for the month. And I generally send a little tidbit of like, here's kind of. The direction, we're planning to build things in and put that in the product update, email that goes to all customers.

[00:49:20] So I kind of like try to keep a little bit of accountability there. I think people are always curious to know, like, what's, what's coming up next in the product. I

[00:49:28] Peter Akkies: I subscribed to this? Am I getting those?

[00:49:30] Derrick Reimer: you should be. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:49:32] Yup.

[00:49:32] Peter Akkies: I'll have to see.

[00:49:34] Derrick Reimer: Yeah. Yeah. They go out generally around the first of the month.

[00:49:37] Peter Akkies: Oh, cool.

[00:49:39] Derrick Reimer: Yeah. And it's usually just, it's just a couple lines at the end. Like I, I'm not a big fan of like fully public roadmaps where like all the granular detail is right there for all the world to see, because that can, I think it can set up unrealistic expectations or

[00:49:52] Peter Akkies: Yeah.

[00:49:53] Derrick Reimer: You know, there's some problems with that, but I think giving people a small window is helpful and also keeps me a little bit accountable to like, no, you said like, this is the general theme of things you're going to work on this month and you should try to stick to that as much as possible.

[00:50:07] So monthly is good, but I think monthly is not quite enough too, so I think quarterly can be pretty helpful too. I think anything beyond that, for me, I'd have a hard time saying like, this is what I want to get done this year. It's like, I don't know what direction the product's going to. You know, to me that's a little bit, probably a little bit too far, but quarter is probably about the a good sweet spot, I think.

[00:50:27] Peter Akkies: Yeah. I think that depends on the kind of work that you do. You know, like for me, I just worked by myself. I run my own thing. So like, quarterly is totally fine, but I imagine if you're working in like a larger firm where you're leading, let's say like 80 people or whatever, you know, people need more guidance, right. So you need to come up with it, then you need to communicate it. They need to act on it. So probably a longer timescale is helpful as well.

[00:50:46] Um, Okay. I want to ask you about one more thing before we wrap it up. And that is earlier you mentioned. That when you were working on Level, the software that didn't really, you know, become successful. You were talking with, you know, mentors and friends and whatever, and they really sort of told you to know, look like you're capable, you can do things. And that really helped get your confidence back and, and I think I'd read this on your Q&A on Product Hunt, but I'm not sure, that you're also in a mastermind group. I read it somewhere.

[00:51:14] Um, So I want to hear about that a little bit, because I've always been fascinated by the idea of mastermind groups. Never really. I don't know how to, I'm not in one, you know, I've never really got to that point, but I'm curious. What is that like, how did you find this group of people that you're in a mastermind group with? How does it work? How often do you meet and you kind of do a round table, you know, what, what benefits do you feel from that?

[00:51:35] Derrick Reimer: Yeah. So I've been in, I've been in several of these over the years and they've reached functioned a little bit differently. But I think the ones that. I'm most gravitated towards. So everyone has a little bit different preferences around this preface with that, you know I've been in ones that are a little bit more serious where it's like we talk once a month and we do the, kind of the route, the hot seat format where like, maybe you rotate on who's taking most of the time.

[00:51:57] And then everyone has a few minutes or whatever. I'm not a big fan of the, the super. Rigid kind like that. Like, it they're helpful, but I like the way masterminds have sort of function for me have been sort of like a quasi extension of my founding team. Like, so I'm in, I'm in one with two other solo founders who also went through the same tiny seed batches me.

[00:52:19] So we kind of naturally came out of that same, same little cohort together and we've developed a friendship. And so we enjoy, like, we talk almost daily, I would say we're going to like a little shared workspace chat and. We're just kind of, we use that as a place to be a sounding board. So if we're frustrated about something or trying or wrestling with a decision about something, we'll just, we can share freely with each other.

[00:52:43] We all know each other's numbers. So it's like, you know, we're very candid with each other. And so it sort of feels like for me, at least, and I think that the other guys would probably agree that like, We can kind of come to each other with questions that maybe you would typically go to your co-founder about if you had one and kind of strategize.

[00:53:02] And then we do, we do um, in this one we do a call every other week and for about an hour and we sort of just, it's kind of organic on whoever needs to talk the most. Whoever's dealing wrestling with the most tricky decisions generally takes most of the time. But we usually try to you know, each, each like share a little bit of what's been going on that we haven't, haven't managed to talk about organically through our our chat room.

[00:53:26] And it's honestly, it's one of the, I, it would be hard to imagine doing this without something like that. Like, it would be pretty, it can be really a little lonely. Um, When you feel like you're making all these decisions, like you're making thousands of decisions and it's like, it's hard to know whether you're on the right track.

[00:53:46] So even just getting. Even if it's something where like, should, it feels like it should be obvious just running it past someone else can really give peace of mind I've found. And so, yeah, I'm a big fan of them.

[00:53:58] Peter Akkies: No. That's great. I should uh, I should get on that because I keep hearing people say really positive things about it. So

[00:54:05] Derrick Reimer: There's a couple. Um, So I don't know if you're familiar with the MicroConf community, but that,

[00:54:09] Peter Akkies: no.

[00:54:10] Derrick Reimer: yeah,

[00:54:11] so that's, it's a started as a conference that my co-founder with Drip, Rob started putting on like, gosh, over 10 years ago, I think now and now there's like also an online community called Microsoft or MicroConf C onnect, I think.

[00:54:26] And they do, they have a thing through. Three with that community where they help kind of pair people up in masterminds too. So there's like that, that kind of service, which I think folks find helpful. And there's a couple other kind of matchmaking things out there too. I think for folks, if they're interested.

[00:54:41] Peter Akkies: Cool. I'll have to check that out and, you know, people can um, we'll, we'll put that in the show notes so people can go check that out as well. So that was really nice.

[00:54:48] So, so Derrick, if someone is frustrated about the way that they schedule meetings with people, what should they do?

[00:54:56] Derrick Reimer: They should go, definitely, they should go to SavvyCal.com. We can we can even drop like a coupon code if that's, if that's kosher with you. Um,

[00:55:04] Yeah. Yeah. Um, We'll come up with uh, we'll, we'll put it in the show notes.

[00:55:08] I'm not sure what we want to make the code exactly, but um, but look

[00:55:11] Peter Akkies: it in the show notes.

[00:55:12] Derrick Reimer: for uh, for a free month um, a SavvyCal and yeah, we have a seven day trial and then we can give you an extra free month for listening to this fine podcast.

[00:55:21] Peter Akkies: Very cool. Yeah. And I will add my personal endorsement. It's been so lovely. It just, just, just imagine it, like, you're booking a meeting with someone and you say, okay, click on this link and they get that link. They click on it, they see your availability on the calendar. They can overlay their own calendar. They can see exactly where there's a mutually convenient gap. Pick a time. Everybody knows what's going on. If you need to reschedule you just click the reschedule button and you'd go through the same thing. I mean, I don't know. I honestly, one of the biggest time savers and no-brainers and everybody, go check it out.

[00:55:51] Derrick Reimer: Love it.

[00:55:52] Peter Akkies: So thanks very much Derrick for coming on the show.

[00:55:54] Derrick Reimer: Yeah. Thanks for having me. It was blast.

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